The following is a transcript excerpt from Dr. Jordan Peterson’s conversation with country music artist John Rich on prayer, how to discern the difference between your will and God’s will, the truth of the Bible, death and eternity. You can listen to or watch the full podcast episode on DailyWire+.

Start time: 49:39

Jordan B. Peterson: I am curious about how you know the difference between your will and what should be done. The prayer — to do the father’s will on earth as it is in heaven — is different from pursuing your own short-term interests. But you can be deluded about that. So how do you know? How do you test your own motivation to determine whether what you are doing is truthful or just another snare of deception?

John Rich: I think one place, with respect, that I think you are wrong on this subject and that you miss it, is that you think human beings have the capability to decide between left and right, truth and lie, all these things that are going on, and we’re just not capable of it. I’ll put it to you this way: I am not looking at the real Jordan Peterson. I’m looking at what Jordan Peterson lives in for a while. You’re not looking at John Rich. I just live in this thing for a while. The real Jordan Peterson lives forever. He’s an eternal being. He was created by the creator, and he was put in that body that you’re in right now to last as long as it’s going to last. And then that body is going to die. And then the real Jordan is released from that body, same way it goes for me. 

So the only way a human being can discern what is true and what is a lie is you better have Jesus inside of you because he’s the ultimate truth. So when things come at you that are lies, which is every single day — including lies you might tell yourself or make yourself think something is not true, have a notion about something and it seems really strong — you ask Him: Is that true? Like, am I thinking about this right? 

And you pray about it and you go, if this is wrong, don’t let me do that. You know, put me in the right spot, even though it seems totally obvious that I should do this in my own eyes. And He will. But the only way that works is if you have yielded to Him, turned over the entire control to Him, become a bondservant to Him. He’s the ultimate truth. If a lie comes into contact with the ultimate truth, which one is more powerful at that point? Is the truth more powerful than the lie? Of course it is. It’s the ultimate power, the real truth.

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Time: 54:06

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Peterson: When you were deciding to move away from the studio and record-label life, how did you come to the determination? You mentioned prayer, but how did you come to determine that was the appropriate path, that it was not just another form of ego game? You said part of it — acknowledging there is a big risk in it — so there is an obvious sacrificial component to that which speaks of its truth. But I am really interested in the details. And then the other issue that I am curious about is, when you talk about prayer and you are using your prayer to discern the truth, what is it that you are praying for that enables you to benefit from that discernment?

Rich: What a great question. So, the Holy Spirit. It says in the Bible that, to His children — the real ones, the ones that have turned it over to Him — He will send the Holy Spirit to help you and guide you and navigate for you. You have to ask for that. You pray and say, “Please send the Holy Spirit to me because I can’t figure this out. I’m having trouble. I don’t know what to do. What am I supposed to do right now?” You ask for that, and He will send it. And then in your being, you feel if [you’re] making a wrong move. “Am I supposed to go left? Right? Straight? Not move at all? Or a step back? Which one am I supposed to do?” It will become very clear to you.

It’s called discernment. We’re told, we’re commanded, multiple times — If you read Proverbs, you read what King David wrote; discernment was everything. I mean, that’s like King Solomon. King Solomon asked for that. King Solomon asked for wisdom and discernment. He wanted to be able to discern because it’s the hardest thing for a human being to do. How do I know? How do I know what I’m supposed to do? And if you’re only relying on your own physical self to figure that out, you’re never going to get it right — ever. You’re never going to get it right. And so the Holy Spirit, that’s who comes in. And he is the discernment that you’re asking for. Now, He may not tell you the second you ask for it, but if you ask for it and you’re serious about it and that’s what you really want, he’ll send it to you and you’ll get it.

And so I think to your conversation about the music industry and all that stuff, I could feel it. I could feel he was telling me, it’s time for you to get out of here, bud. Time to go. Time to go. Things like my kids reacting to things, my wife reacting to things, me personally reacting to things. That was his way of going: Ding, ding, ding. Pay attention, John. Time for you to move. I know you’ve been doing this your whole life. I know this was your American Dream. I know this is what you think you were built to do, and maybe you were for a period of time. But I got something else for you to do.

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Time: 1:18:14

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Rich: If you feel Him — you feel Him knocking at the door, open the door. It’s very simple. You don’t need a preacher; you don’t need a priest. You don’t need anybody to sit down with, to give your life to Jesus, and go to heaven. You don’t need anybody. You can sit there all by yourself, and you can reach out to him, and you can give your life to him right there anytime you want to. … And again, we’re all going to have to go to that point. Everybody’s going to die. Everybody. And the second you die, [the Bible] says to be absent from the flesh is to be present with God. Boom. Just like that. And you’re standing in front of the boss. And what are you going to say to him? What’s he going to say to you? That’s the only conversation any human being should be concerned about. … The stakes are the eternal stakes out here. You are supposed to go say that. 

And let me tell you something, doctor, as we wrap. You could be one of the most powerful weapons in the hand of God that He ever slung — ever — because of the intellect that you have, because of the platform that you have, because of the millions of people, and what you’ve learned. You’ve read every word of the Bible, you’ve dissected it, you know what it is. And the day that becomes absolutely life-and-death real to you, you sir, could be one of the most powerful human beings, in my opinion, that ever walked the face of the earth.

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Dr. Jordan B. Peterson is a clinical psychologist and professor emeritus at the University of Toronto. From 1993 to 1998 he served as assistant and then associate professor of psychology at Harvard. He is the international bestselling author of “Maps of Meaning,” “12 Rules For Life,” and “Beyond Order.” You can now listen to or watch his popular lectures on DailyWire+.

Be sure to PRE-ORDER Dr. Peterson’s newest book: “We Who Wrestle with God” (Portfolio/Penguin. November 19, 2024.)

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